Vaccines

[LizzieD932]

So, I was getting coffee at a local coffee shop earlier today and I ran into a lady I used to work with. I told her I was pregnant and one of the first things she said to me was, "You're not going to make the baby get any kind of vaccines, are you?" I looked at her for a minute and finally said, "Well, why wouldn't I?" She went on for at least 20 minutes about how some of these vaccines are proven to cause autism and other conditions.

Does anyone know if there is truth to this? Or is she a conspiracy theorist or something? I'd never heard anything like this until this morning.

[bearda93]

I'm surprised you have not heard of this controversy before. It's pretty much spread over the headlines on most major news websites in the mainstream media.

There is so much to say on this topic, but it's something you really need to research on your own. Try Googling some keywords and go from there. There are some credible and not so credible websites on both sides of the issue, so be careful of your sources. But, bottomline for me, I have my kids on a very delayed vax schedule. After researching it all, I concluded that I didn't think it was in my family's best interest to follow the AAP timeline. Too many vaxes in too short of a time frame. One book I liked was "The Vaccine Book," by Dr. Robert Sears. It was a good jumping off point for me, but it certainly wasn't the only resource I used.

It's a tough decision, probably one of the biggest you can make as a parent. It deserves careful attention and research. Good luck!

[lismom2]

here is that list I was going to give you to get you started on your vaccine research. This is a shortened list that a wise lady gave to me to make my own choice. I currently do not vaccinate my kids (however, I'm always researching and may one day change my mind...right now I mainly feel that they are just too young to vaccinate), but I don't fault anyone for researching and choosing to do so :) Knowledge is key and I can see why and when some families choose to vaccinate and I'm all for scientific progress. Also, FWIW, Autism really had little to do with my decision not to vaccinate. Best of luck!

The Cutter Incident , Paul Offit
Don't Vaccinate Before You Educate , Mayer Eisenstein
Evidence of Harm , David Kirby
How To Raise A Healthy Child ... Inspite Of Your Doctor , Robert S. Mendelsohn
Just a Little Prick , Hilary Butler
Raising a Vaccine Free Child, Wendy Lydall
A Shot in the Dark , Harris Coulter & Barbara Loe Fisher
Vaccinations: A Thoughtful Parents' Guide , Aviva Jill Romm
Vaccine , Arthur Allen
The Vaccine Book , Robert W. Sears
The Vaccine Controversy , Kurt Link
The Vaccine Guide , Randall Neustaedter
Vaccines , Neil Z. Miller
Vaccines , Sherri Tenpenny
The Virus and the Vaccine , Debbie Bookchin and Jim Schumacher
What Every Parent Should Know About Childhood Immunization , Jamie Murphy
What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Children's Vaccinations , Stephanie Cave
When Your Doctor is Wrong , Judy Converse


Here are some of the questions we asked ourselves:


Name of the disease
Treatments of the disease and how effective are those treatments
Relevant research about the disease
Name/Company/contents of the vaccine
The significance of whether or not the vaccine is live
History of development of the vaccine
Known side-effects of the vaccine and rate of incidence of those side-effects
Possible side-effects not yet acknowledged by the vaccine maker
Relevant research into the vaccine
How effective is the vaccine at preventing the disease?
What is the vaccine meant to do? (Many vaccines are not meant to prevent infection or transmission).

Here are links

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/mmwr_wk.html (download the current issue)
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...splay.php?f=47
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...k-chapters.htm
http://vaers.hhs.gov/pdf/PackageInserts.pdf
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...40451107552&q=
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...87981735&hl=en
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...ses&deaths.pdf

[swtangelbaby]

Another good source of information is-

http://www.exploringvaccines.com/

[LizzieD932]

Wow, thanks for all that information. I guess I have some research to do. I've been talking to friends about this, and I must not have been paying attention to CNN and the late night news on this subject. Then again, I never paid much attention to any of the pregnancy health/childrens health news until now. But thanks.

[Kerisweetpea]

i myself am choosing to get my children vaccinated! my son is very healthy and has only gotten sick once in his 2yrs of life. now on the other hand my friend she is all about organic, and natural remedies! she has 2 kids and her youngest is just over a year and oldest is 3 both of them are sick ALL the time,at least 4 times a month and its not just colds its full sick throwing up and everything! and they have already had the chicken pox. now im not saying dont get your children vaccinated its your choice im just telling you my experience.
and you can also choose what ones you want to give, if there is only a couple you think are important.

[bearda93]

now on the other hand my friend she is all about organic, and natural remedies! she has 2 kids and her youngest is just over a year and oldest is 3 both of them are sick ALL the time,at least 4 times a month and its not just colds its full sick throwing up and everything!
What does this have to do with vaxing? I'm puzzled. Unless someone has come up with a vax against a GI virus that I'm unaware of, this has nothing to do with the issue. Her poor kids, they are sick pretty much every week of every month? *Wow*

Lizzie, lismom2 gave you a tremendous list of resources. It's a lot of work researching, but you'll feel good knowing that whatever decision you make, you've done so from an educated standpoint.

[bearda93]

and they have already had the chicken pox.
Oh, I missed this little tidbit. I can assure you, your friend is probably doing the happy dance, because now her kids have lifelong immunity against varicella, something that those kids who are vaxed *do not* have - vaxing against varicella is no guarantee that you won't get it.

[dcroberts]

Oh, I missed this little tidbit. I can assure you, your friend is probably doing the happy dance, because now her kids have lifelong immunity against varicella, something that those kids who are vaxed *do not* have - vaxing against varicella is no guarantee that you won't get it.



Of course no vaccination is a 100% guarantee. However, getting chicken pox the "old fashioned" way will also subject you to a lifetime possibility of a flare-up known as shingles. Very painful.

[Nana83]

Oh, I missed this little tidbit. I can assure you, your friend is probably doing the happy dance, because now her kids have lifelong immunity against varicella, something that those kids who are vaxed *do not* have - vaxing against varicella is no guarantee that you won't get it.

Haha, I am a mommie to be who will be happily sending my child over to play with the first kid I can find with chickenpox. Not sure why varicella vax are all of a sudden so important for children to have.

[mommabearto3]

Sorry to be repetitive, but for the sake of expedience, I will repost this response in this thread as well...

I definitely understand why most people feel the way they do about vaccinations and I believe doctors mean well in their recommendations to vaccinate, but for many reasons, I (and many others), have come to think that they have missed the boat on this one.
We used to vaccinate our 3 kids on schedule until about 1 year ago when I started really doing a lot of research and found that I just did not feel comfortable vaccinating anymore. My husband agrees so we have chosen to stop permanently. Many things have led to that decision. One of them was understanding that vaccines aren't really as effective as they are touted to be by the medical community. We tend to think (and are told) that if it were not for vaccines, we would still have huge epidemics of all the childhood diseases they now vaccinate against. Seems like that would make sense at first glance, but when you research it, you find that almost all those diseases were in massive decline PRIOR to the vaccines becoming mainstream. The reason for this decline is mainly due to better sanitation & nutrition which has a huge impact on our immune systems. Here are some graphs showing this trend:

You can read more about this info at:

http://freelearner.typepad.com/free_learner/2008/05/why-do-people-read-time-in-the-first-place.html

Also, one of the most informative things I did was to watch the video I linked to below with my husband. It is made by a very well respected doctor who was pro-vax for a long time (she was the head of an ER at a hospital) but then started researching it for herself and found much to be concerned about. She says most doctors are very well meaning but the education they receive is very one sided and they simply don't have time to do the research for themselves and/or don't even know/want to really question the vaccine policies. Here's the link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7018835240451107552&q=

It's a video by Dr. Sherri Tenpenny called "Vaccines: The risks, the benefits, the choices." It was a couple of hours, but walked through each vaccine and gave a ton of helpful info.

For us, after all the research, we just couldn't see taking the risk of injecting some potentially very dangerous chemicals for very little payout in the end (since vaccines are not nearly as effective as they seem to be at keeping our children from getting the diseases they are supposed to immunize against in the first place!)

Again, I sympathise with how hard of a decision this is. It kinda feels like "damned if you do, damned if you don't" (pardon the language:) sometimes, but just do the research and make the best decision you can for your family.

[H.Starr]

Vaccinations were never a question, not even for one single millisecond.
My son has had every possible one so far, and will continue to until there are none left.
Anything I can do to prevent sickness and diseases, I'm doing.
He's almost ten months old and has never been sick a single day in his life. Not even a cold.
I think vaccines causing autism is a load of crap. I've never ever heard of someone "growing autistic." They're born with it.

Aaand, he will get the chicken pox vaccination, and I will try my best to not let him be near anyone who has it! YUCK!

[Jill_at_StorkRadio]

I also plan to vaccinate but the question for me is how many at a time -- I am not sure I want to give my baby 5 shots in a day, I would rather space it out and not overwhelm her body. Does anyone have a good delayed schedule that they use?

[H.Starr]

Typically when they have more than one to get at a time, they combine some. My son's first set of shots (2 months old) was 3 shots. The next two sets (4 and 6 months) were 2 shots. And this most recent (9 months) was only one.

[SiMaMa]

My son has had all his vaccinations up to date. I don't think that autism is a disease you can just get either. I know of a couple of people with autistic children, and they said the signs were there from the beginning. And any case, I would rather chance it than have my son die of something like whopping cough when it could have easily prevented.

[lismom2]

Jill- many parents are happy with Dr. Sears alternative schedule
http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/labels/Vaccines%20and%20their%20diseases.asp

This sit also has a lot of info an a schedule at the bottom.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller15.html

[H.Starr]

From Parenting themselves, in their "Stinky Diaper Awards"


The Whatever it Takes to Get Ratings Award
Eli Stone

As Teletubbies can attest, TV is far from factual. Even so, we were outraged by the season premiere of this ABC show, in which a mom nabs a $5.2 million verdict after alleging that a vaccine caused her son's autism. The controversy over inoculations and autism is frighteningly real, despite the fact that stacks of studies from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Food and Drug Administration, and the American Academy of Pediatrics have failed to expose a link. "Many people trust the health information presented on fictional television shows," then AAP president Ren¿e R. Jenkins, M.D., said in a plea to the network not to air the episode. The show went on, and we'd hate to think that it dissuaded even one parent from vaccinating her child.


Thank you Parenting! Vaccines causing autism = FICTION.

[kementzer]

As a father of 3 my opinion is, get them vaccinated. There is no proven link between any vacs an Autism or anything else other then mild side effects. Also I'm sorry but the risk of my child getting sick and dieing from an illness is definitely greater then raising a child with autism. Myself, my wife, 98% of people I know as well as all 3 of my children were vaccinated and no one as any illness from them. Ultimately do what you think is right. Just think what is best for your child and which risk is greater

[Jill_at_StorkRadio]

It is also a good thing to talk to your pediatrician about in your prenatal interviews. They can point you in the direction of other medical research too and see if you are into their philosophy.

[miriamele]

I have an 8mo old daughter that has had one vax, and that one they gave her in the hospital without my permission. I decided that I wasn't going to vaccinate my daughter untill she was at least 1 year old, and then, she won't be getting all of them.

A friend of mine has a 3 year old daughter who was talking at one year, whole (if short) sentences. by the time she was 18mo, she didn't talk at all, refused to make eye contact with anyone, couldn't sit still, even to eat...all kinds of things. There were no major frvers, nothing to explain what was wrong. She was recently diagnosed with sever autisom. The only explaination that anyone can come up with is the vax she received.

I have lived with an autistic stepbrother, and it is not something I'm willing to risk, but it seems that if you wait to vaccinate, the risks decrease, and I do want my child protected from whatever I can protect her from.

[H.Starr]

Direct quote regarding autism and vaccines:
"stacks of studies from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Food and Drug Administration, and the American Academy of Pediatrics have failed to expose a link."
Why?? Because there isn't one!
Parents just need someone and something to blame for anything that is ever wrong with their children. "Can't be bad genes, must be vaccines!" "My baby was born deformed. It can't be because I drank a case a beer every week while I was pregnant, it must be prenatal vitamins!" etc etc.
Come on.
Some kids are autistic. Whether you vaccinate them or not won't change that. You'll just end up with an autistic kid more likely to get sicknesses/diseases, or an autistic kid less likely to get those things.

[lismom2]

Direct quote regarding autism and vaccines:
"stacks of studies from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Food and Drug Administration, and the American Academy of Pediatrics have failed to expose a link."
Why?? Because there isn't one!
Parents just need someone and something to blame for anything that is ever wrong with their children. "Can't be bad genes, must be vaccines!" "My baby was born deformed. It can't be because I drank a case a beer every week while I was pregnant, it must be prenatal vitamins!" etc etc.
Come on.
Some kids are autistic. Whether you vaccinate them or not won't change that. You'll just end up with an autistic kid more likely to get sicknesses/diseases, or an autistic kid less likely to get those things.

The incidence of autism now is too high to ignore. Autism is something that affects the entire community. We will be paying for these children for the rest of their lives through tax money and charities (as I think we should be doing). I don't think parents are looking for something to blame, rather, they are trying to find a reason and I completely sympathize and understand how many parents have drawn the conclusion that vaccines have contributed to their children's current health. Vaccinating your child is a personal choice for your family. Vaccinate your kids, don't vaccinate your kids, but don't put someone else down because they had a happy, healthy blossoming child that had a vaccine reaction that either is or mimic's autism. How would you feel if it was your child? You would be searching for answers left and right! The CDC and AAP both have several billions of dollars wrapped up in vaccine production and are sponsored by large pharmaceutical companies. Conflict of interest much? How many years and lawsuits and studies did it take for large tobacco companies to finally admit that smoking causes cancers and kills people?

[H.Starr]

I just don't think so.
There is NO proof. At all.
People can start saying, "My son was vaccinated, that must be why he's gay!"
Or, "My son was vaccinated, that must be why he's a psycho serial killer!"
I'm sure lots of serial killers' parents had them vaccinated. I bet lots of homosexuals' parents had them vaccinated. And I'm sure lots of autistic kids' parents had them vaccinated.
But there is NO proof, NO evidence, NO reason to believe that the vaccines were the cause of ANY of those things.
And since you asked, if any of my children are autistic, I will not be looking for anything I can to blame it on. I'll take it as "That's life." It happens. Some people are autistic. Some are gay. Some are mentally retarded. Its just how it is.
Its NOT because their parents chose to protect their health with vaccines.
How do you explain children who WEREN'T vaccinated and are STILL autistic?
They're no different than those that were vaccinated. Its not the cause, or a preventative.

[moonemaiden]

I agree with H.Starr. Everything I have studied in biology, genetics, virology, etc. supports the widespread use of vaccines. However, supporting the use of vaccines does not necessarily support the schedule or method they are given by. Although mercury is very rarely used in vaccines anymore, it's still important to know what the medium is (allergic reaction to eggs comes to mind). And the schedule should not be a "one size fits all" kind of thing. For example, children of mothers who breastfeed exclusively for the first 6 months, and then continue to breastfeed longer, can usually safely delay all vaccinations for a year. Due to an other health reasons, I was unable to breastfeed my children. Both kids have been vaccinated according to schedule. However, I still sit down with our pediatrician before each and every vaccination and go over the specific details. Including which diseases, what medium, producing drug company, current studies, and side effects.

I'm not an expert. These are just the decisions I've come to after extensive research of vaccines, the diseases they protect against, and how the diseases "work" against our body. I do not support the yearly influenza vaccine, though. It boils down to a risk/benefit list and that one just doesn't make it for me.

[lismom2]

I agree with H.Starr. Everything I have studied in biology, genetics, virology, etc. supports the widespread use of vaccines. However, supporting the use of vaccines does not necessarily support the schedule or method they are given by. Although mercury is very rarely used in vaccines anymore, it's still important to know what the medium is (allergic reaction to eggs comes to mind). And the schedule should not be a "one size fits all" kind of thing. For example, children of mothers who breastfeed exclusively for the first 6 months, and then continue to breastfeed longer, can usually safely delay all vaccinations for a year. Due to an other health reasons, I was unable to breastfeed my children. Both kids have been vaccinated according to schedule. However, I still sit down with our pediatrician before each and every vaccination and go over the specific details. Including which diseases, what medium, producing drug company, current studies, and side effects.

I'm not an expert. These are just the decisions I've come to after extensive research of vaccines, the diseases they protect against, and how the diseases "work" against our body. I do not support the yearly influenza vaccine, though. It boils down to a risk/benefit list and that one just doesn't make it for me.

I agree with almost all of this :) I'm not anti-vaccine, just very pro choice.

[sierra_26]

I am the proud mommy of a beautiful 10 month old boy. I also have 3 step sons. When we had our son he was born a month early and was very sick. I had decided early on I didn't want to vaccinate him and the more research I did my husband agreed with me. Unfortunately my doctor lied to us and told us our state doesn't except exemptions. Not only do you need to do your homework about the vaccines but you also have to find a doctor who will except your child as a patient if you decide not to vaccinate. Which is a challenge! For good information you should read What your doctor may not be telling you about childrens vaccines. Also a good website to contact is the holistic moms network. They can give you great info about organic and holistic remedies and vaccines. They even helped me find a doctor. I also write a blog about our journey through many difficulties and doing things naturally and NOT vaccinating. Another great book to read is Jenny McCarthy's book Louder than words.

As far as the chicken pox vaccine I will be taking my child to play with the first person I can find who has them. What is the big deal we all got chicken pox as a child and lived through it. Hey we even got a week off from school. These scientists are so quick to make a "cure" for everything what is going to happen when these viruses mutate and became something else. Which is happening......

As for the lady who made the comment about no links being made between vacs and autism. The only link between the rise in autism is the rise in vaccines. If you do your homework most kids don't get diagnosed with autism until they are in their toddler years. They are finding most of these children are born fine and develop fine until after all the shots are done something changes....hmm....I wonder what that is!

If you want to check out my blog....http://holimommy.blogspot.com

[H.Starr]

Funny that doctors won't even see your kids if they're not vaccinated.
Hmm.....I wonder what that should tell you.......

And as for kids not being diagnosed until they're toddlers...please tell me how the hell you would diagnose a newborn?! Really. I'd love to know what "symptom" a freaking newborn would have. Since they have so much personality and all. Enlighten me. Please.

[lismom2]

Funny that doctors won't even see your kids if they're not vaccinated.
Hmm.....I wonder what that should tell you.......

And as for kids not being diagnosed until they're toddlers...please tell me how the hell you would diagnose a newborn?! Really. I'd love to know what "symptom" a freaking newborn would have. Since they have so much personality and all. Enlighten me. Please.

Doctors are refusing due to insurance companies and malpractice. This is also one of the reasons for the increase in cesarean's. I you didn't do 'everything' possible, the doctor is held liable.

[eniese]

There have been increases in all manner of things that coincide with the increase in the incidence of autism. Not the least of these being that the definition of autism has been greatly expanded which increases the number of children who could be considered autistic and the awareness campaigns have increased the percentage of children who have autism getting diagnosed properly. Heck, global warming is occurring while autism increases and so is the obesity epidemic. We have as much reason to blame them for the increase in autism as anything else. Correlation is not causation.

Choose to get your kids vaccinated or not, but do it for real, scientifically based reasons. And, as you run off to infect your kids with chicken pox, google shingles first so you know what you are possibly subjecting them to as adults.

[H.Starr]

There's been an increase in illegal immigration.
There's been an increase in "out of the closet" homosexuality.
There's been an increase in unemployment.
The list goes on and on and on.

Typically when there's an "increase" in diagnosis of a particular disease its either because more people know what it is now, or the definition has broadened, etc.
Once upon a time ago no one knew what autism was. They just thought their kids were "weird." Now as more people are becoming aware of it, more kids are getting diagnosed with it.

[lismom2]

Correlation is not causation.

Choose to get your kids vaccinated or not, but do it for real, scientifically based reasons. And, as you run off to infect your kids with chicken pox, google shingles first so you know what you are possibly subjecting them to as adults.

I agree that correlation is not causation. I also think that there really haven't been enough non-biased studies done between vaccination and autism.

As for chicken pox, I'll let my kids become infected (but I'm not going to actively seek a pox-party) with the real deal and decide later on for themselves if they want the zostervax. Besides, the varicella vax leads to shingles as well, and often in younger populations.

[lismom2]

Here's a decent article on chickenpox.
http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/03/20/eradicate-chickenpox-sure-why-not/

[sierra_26]

Your child can still get the chicken pox even if you get the vaccine and they can still get shingles! Vaccines aren't 100%! It's funny how I said do your homework I never said don't vaccinate. But the women who chose to vaccinate are the one's getting nasty on here. It's a personal decision, every person can make their own choice. I made mine I stand by it. I am not judging you for making yours. I can say in the 10 months of my sons life he has never been sick besides an ear infection. He is in the 110% for his growth he is a big and happy boy. I guess you can judge me to because he only eats organic and when I couldn't breastfeed anymore we took him off formula and gave him goats milk. It's hormone free.

[lismom2]

http://www.thehealthybelly.com/healthy_baby.php?article_id=227&sub_tab_id=20

[sierra_26]

I just read an article written by a doctor of the Amish. Just in case you don't know most Amish do NOT vaccinate. Well his practice has 35,000 Amish children between several offices. Out of the 35,000 only 2 of them are autistic and those 2 were vaccinated before they became patients at his practice. But I know it's not the vaccines that made them autistic or had anything to do with it!!!

[H.Starr]

But I know it's not the vaccines that made them autistic or had anything to do with it!!!

You're right. ;)

[RImommy]

sierra, kind of off topic here, but I was just curious what you meant by your son is in the 110% for growth? Since percentiles are the percentage of the population that you are above - that would mean your son is bigger than every other baby his age plus 10% that don't exist. I'm just confused and was really curious how your doctor was getting that number.

[H.Starr]

sierra, kind of off topic here, but I was just curious what you meant by your son is in the 110% for growth? Since percentiles are the percentage of the population that you are above - that would mean your son is bigger than every other baby his age plus 10% that don't exist. I'm just confused and was really curious how your doctor was getting that number.

Hahaha I wondered that too!

[sierra_26]

sierra, kind of off topic here, but i was just curious what you meant by your son is in the 110% for growth? Since percentiles are the percentage of the population that you are above - that would mean your son is bigger than every other baby his age plus 10% that don't exist. I'm just confused and was really curious how your doctor was getting that number.

yes my son is off the charts. He is the size of most 18 to 24 month old children. Apparently it must be a scale that many doctors use because his physical therapist measures the same way. I have friends who have children who are off the charts as well and their doctors measure the same way. I guess it's not something someone would know if their child isn't off the charts. But thanks for asking!

[RImommy]

That's a big boy you have! Thanks for clarifying, I had been wondering about that :)

[H.Starr]

Wouldn't he still be in the 100th percentile? Saying he's taller than every single kid his age?
I still don't see how he can be taller than 10% of imaginary children.
Percentiles are for your child's own age. And so if he is the very tallest howevermonthold ever...he's taller than 100%....
It just makes no sense to me, sorry.

[sierra_26]

Well H. Starr since you seem to not let let things go, he goes to the doctor on Monday for a check up so I will ask her then how the scale works. I will come home and immediately report my findings to you! But I am surprised you don't already know the answer to this! So until Monday, have a great weekend all!

[H.Starr]

Hmm, you're right Sierra...I am such a b*tch for wanting an explanation to something that makes no sense to me. How dare I want to understand?!?!?!
Curiosity killed the cat, right? I'm doomed!!

[EmmaClaire]

Of course no vaccination is a 100% guarantee. However, getting chicken pox the "old fashioned" way will also subject you to a lifetime possibility of a flare-up known as shingles. Very painful.

It's not only the fact that it's not 100% effective. Vaccine immunity is artificial and temporary, leaving the child vulnerable to catching chicken pox later in life, when it can be far more serious.

And since the introduction of the CP vaccine, there has been an INCREASE in shingles, including cases in small children which used to be very, very rare. The reason the shingles rate is going up is that young children with chicken pox used to provide a natural "booster" for adults against shingles. Now we're trying to vaccinate this harmless yet helpful childhood disease into oblivion. We shouldn't be messing with mother nature like this.

My children will (hopefully) catch chicken pox and gain lifelong natural immunity, and then possibly offer my husband and me protection against shingles.

[Teagan's Mommy]

hey guys i'm new, my name's Tammy! mommy to a beautiful little man Teagan!
we do NOT vax at all. i'd love to talk to other non vaxing moms and am so happy to see many in this forum!